Tiki Barber

[Brooklyn]

Assuming yesterday was his last game, will he make the Hall?


10,449 yards rushing, good for 18th best all-time
5,183 yards receiving, one of only three players with 10,000 yards rushing and 5,000 yards receiving
15,632 total yards from scrimmage, good for 10th best all-time
4.7 yards per carry in his career


A very solid career

[efin98]

Folks will knock him down because he is only 18th all time in rushing yards, but that isn't his fault- it was his coach's fault for using him as a third down back instead of allowing him to run the damn ball. That cost him at least 1000 yards over the course of two season, enough for 13th place on the all time list just behind Thurman Thomas and ahead of John Riggins...instead he's stuck at 17th place(by 8 yards) between Eddie George and Ricky Watters...

His yards from scimmage will be his big ticket into the Hall of Fame- evey one of the guys above him and a large number of the guys below him are either in the Hall of Fame or are just waiting out their 5 year grace period or are sure shots when they finish their careers...


He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. He won't get in the first year but he will get in the second or third year he is eligible...

[gridiron]

I said I was unsure, but that was because I suspect a lot of people will not look at the numbers but at, was he one of the best or the best of his time? People will point to othetrs overshadowing him almost every year and that will hurt.

I can't think of any years where he was the dominant back in the league a la Shawn Alexander, Larry Johnson, Priest Holmes and LT.

[efin98]

I said I was unsure, but that was because I suspect a lot of people will not look at the numbers but at, was he one of the best or the best of his time? People will point to othetrs overshadowing him almost every year and that will hurt.

I can't think of any years where he was the dominant back in the league a la Shawn Alexander, Larry Johnson, Priest Holmes and LT.

Rushing yards alone compared with others over his career he has done well:

Johnson hasn't lead the league yet, his best year was second this year and third in 2005.
Alexander has only lead the league in 2005, 2nd in 2004, 8th in 2003, and 6th in 2001.
Holmes has only lead the league in 2001 and came in 3rd in 2002 and 9th in 2003.
LT has been 1st this year, 6th in 2005, 7th in 2004, 3rd in 2003, 2nd in 2002, and 9th in 2001.
Barber has been 7th in 2002, 5th in 2004, 2nd in 2005, and 4th in 2006 I'd say he did well.

Those just the guys you listed, he has also been up against other like Corey Dillon, Curtis Martin, Marshall Faulk, Ricky Williams, and Edgerin James- pretty much the who's who of future Hall of Famers and the guys who, along with Barber, changed the role of the running back in this era. The fact that he was miscast as a 3rd Down running back shouldn't be held against him, once he became their main running back he exploded on the scene. That kind of production at running back coupled with his receiving yardage should merit Hall of Fame enshrinement.

[CCN]

Roger Craig won't make it, but he's at least been considered. How well he'll be compared to Craig will be the key. I think Barber is a much better runner than Craig was, so he's got a legit shot at it.

[Brooklyn]

One other Tiki Stat:

His 4.71 yards per carry are thrid best among 9,000 yard rushers. Only Jim Brown (5.22) and Barry Sanders (4.99) are better

[ATLFalcons]

It's too close to tell, he is retiring in his prime and his numbers may hurt him.

[gridiron]

Rushing yards alone compared with others over his career he has done well:

Johnson hasn't lead the league yet, his best year was second this year and third in 2005.
Alexander has only lead the league in 2005, 2nd in 2004, 8th in 2003, and 6th in 2001.
Holmes has only lead the league in 2001 and came in 3rd in 2002 and 9th in 2003.
LT has been 1st this year, 6th in 2005, 7th in 2004, 3rd in 2003, 2nd in 2002, and 9th in 2001.
Barber has been 7th in 2002, 5th in 2004, 2nd in 2005, and 4th in 2006 I'd say he did well.

Those just the guys you listed, he has also been up against other like Corey Dillon, Curtis Martin, Marshall Faulk, Ricky Williams, and Edgerin James- pretty much the who's who of future Hall of Famers and the guys who, along with Barber, changed the role of the running back in this era. The fact that he was miscast as a 3rd Down running back shouldn't be held against him, once he became their main running back he exploded on the scene. That kind of production at running back coupled with his receiving yardage should merit Hall of Fame enshrinement.

The guys I listed were all called the best at least one year. LT was called the best before this year began. Did anyone ever call Tiki the best?

[efin98]

The guys I listed were all called the best at least one year. LT was called the best before this year began. Did anyone ever call Tiki the best?

Year to year he was up and down but the key is consistancy, he has it. He was consistantly good, several of the others listed are likely to not have his kind of career especially when their overall numbers really don't stack up against him.

The exception to the rule there though is Sean Alexander and LDT who I believe will surpass him and become Hall of Famers in their own right. I don't believe that guys like Ricky Williams, Priest Holmes, nor LJ will continue their tough running especially with the latter two being run into the ground in KC and Williams unable to stay away from the dope.

[gridiron]

I don't see Ricky Williams in the hall (and I did not list him, BTW) LJ is a question mark because he's had 2 years as a starter so far. Holmes is probably finsihed and Tiki certainly deserves it more than Priest does.

[efin98]

I don't see Ricky Williams in the hall (and I did not list him, BTW) LJ is a question mark because he's had 2 years as a starter so far. Holmes is probably finsihed and Tiki certainly deserves it more than Priest does.

For arguments sake you have to list Williams and others like Corey Dillon and Edgerin James to make a valid argument for/against Barber. In fact I think James, Williams, Dillon, LDT, Priest Holmes, Curtis Martin, and Sean Alexander are the only guys who can be compared accurately to Barber since their careers fully overlap the bulk of Barber's career.

LJ, Gore, and a few other backs sine 2002 don't really compare to him since they were still developing as backs while Barber was already in his prime.

[gridiron]

Even looking at the ones you list, I'm on the fence about Tiki. Appatrently he was never considered the best since Iasked about that twice and no has said yes he was by so and so on such and such a date.

[Brooklyn]

Even looking at the ones you list, I'm on the fence about Tiki. Appatrently he was never considered the best since Iasked about that twice and no has said yes he was by so and so on such and such a date.

Why does he have to be considered "the best" to be in the Hall? That is way too tough a standard. Not all backs in the Hall were "the dominant back in the league", but were at least consistently among the best for many years.

Look at the running backs in the Hall, by the decade they primarily played in (very rough, as most crossed eras, but close enough to make my point):


50's: Frank Gifford, Ollie Matson, Hugh McElhenny, Marion Motley, Joe Perry, Charley Trippi, Doak Walker
60's: Jim Brown, Paul Hornung, John Henry Johnson, Leroy Kelly, Lenny Moore, Gale Sayers, Jim Taylor
70's: Larry Csonka, Franco Harris, John Riggins, O.J Simpson
80's: Walter Payton, Marcus Allen, Earl Campbell, Eric Dickerson, Tony Dorsett
90's: Barry Sanders


Excluding the 90's because it is too soon for most of these players, the Hall has averaged about 6 running backs per decade. I would say that Tiki meets the standard of being one of the best 5-6 backs of his era. Not first ballot, but I think he should get in

[efin98]

Why does he have to be considered "the best" to be in the Hall? That is way too tough a standard. Not all backs in the Hall were "the dominant back in the league", but were at least consistently among the best for many years.

*snip*

Excluding the 90's because it is too soon for most of these players, the Hall has averaged about 6 running backs per decade. I would say that Tiki meets the standard of being one of the best 5-6 backs of his era. Not first ballot, but I think he should get in

Thank you, finally someone who gets what I am trying to say!

[gridiron]

6 running backs /decade is a lot of backs. should that many be in? IMHO--NO!

[efin98]

6 running backs /decade is a lot of backs. should that many be in? IMHO--NO!

Your standards are too high then.

If their achievements merit enshrinement then they belong in the Hall of Fame regardless of how many others there are.

[gridiron]

So it has mistakes a la Cooperstown, induction doesn't necessarily mean the inductee should be in. I prefer halls of fame, not halls of merit or halls of accomplishment.

[efin98]

So it has mistakes a la Cooperstown, induction doesn't necessarily mean the inductee should be in. I prefer halls of fame, not halls of merit or halls of accomplishment.

Then enshrine Deion Sanders. Enshrine TO. Enshrine Chad Johnson. Enshrine all of the other famous players and ignore the grunts who bust their asses year in and year out becoming one of the greatest ever just because they didn't get their names in the papers for doing idiotic, self promoting, team imploding acts.


Bottom line whether you like it or not is that he belongs in there- his work has earned him the right to be there. His peers will say the same thing. Every sports writer with a brain in his head will say the same thing. He belongs in there.

[Brooklyn]

6 running backs /decade is a lot of backs. should that many be in? IMHO--NO!

Of those that are in, who shouldn't be, in your opinion? I am certainly not an expert on 50's NFL, and am marginally better on the 60's, but the guys that were elected from the 70's, 80's and 90's were all good selections, IMO. Who would you take out to make the standard tougher?

[gridiron]

Then enshrine Deion Sanders. Enshrine TO. Enshrine Chad Johnson. Enshrine all of the other famous players and ignore the grunts who bust their asses year in and year out becoming one of the greatest ever just because they didn't get their names in the papers for doing idiotic, self promoting, team imploding acts.


Bottom line whether you like it or not is that he belongs in there- his work has earned him the right to be there. His peers will say the same thing. Every sports writer with a brain in his head will say the same thing. He belongs in there.

Why enshrine Deion or TO? Somehow you misssed that I have H*I*G*H* standards--please pay attention next time.

[gridiron]

As for who shouldn't be in, that will take some thinking, but to say that a hall of fame caliber RB comes along more than once every other year(6/10) is a little much IMHO.

[gridiron]

Not sure about Doak Walker, some of the others--Sayers, Moore were more than RBs.Sayers would not have gotten in just as an RB, his kick returrns and running and receiving are a total package that gets him in. With 18-22 1,000 yarders/year, we need to draw the line pretty tightly.

[efin98]

Not sure about Doak Walker, some of the others--Sayers, Moore were more than RBs.Sayers would not have gotten in just as an RB, his kick returrns and running and receiving are a total package that gets him in. With 18-22 1,000 yarders/year, we need to draw the line pretty tightly.

That's exactly what Barber was- did more than just run the ball, actually received and returned the ball which added to his totals to put him in the top 10 all time.

[Brooklyn]

As for who shouldn't be in, that will take some thinking, but to say that a hall of fame caliber RB comes along more than once every other year(6/10) is a little much IMHO.

I am curious as to who you think shouldn't be in, once you have your list down. I think this is one of the few positions that may be under-represented, not over-represented.

Using your "Best in the league" theory, I'd like to compare Tiki to two HOFers.

First, Marcus Allen.


Tiki had 6 1,000 yard seasons. Marcus had 3
Tiki had 3 1,500 yard seasons. Marcus had 1
Both were in the top to in rushing four times. Marcus was #1,4,10,10. Tiki was #2,#4,#5,#7. Pretty close, especially considering that Tiki lost his title by only 20 yards, and Marcus won his by only 40 yards
They were both known as good receiving backs. They were both in the top-10 5 times in yards per scrimmage, with Marcus finishing #1, #1, #4, #6, #9 and Tiki finishing #1, #1, #4, #5, #8. Eerily similar
The only real edge to Marcus is that he out-rushed Tiki over his career 12,243 to 10,448 (10th all-time vs. 17th all-time) and out yard-from scrimmaged him 17,654 to 15,631 (6th all-time vs. 10th all-time). However, he did that in over 40% more games. Per game, Tiki rushed for 68 yards and received for 34 more. Per game, Marcus rushed for 55 yards and received 24 yards


From the above, Marcus had more longevity, but Tiki had the better career.

Next, look at John Riggins.


Riggins had 5 1,000 yard seasons and 0 1,500 yard seasons (compared to Tiki's 6 1,000 yarders and 3 1,500 yarders).
Riggins never led the league in rushing, finishing in the top-10 4 times, #4, #5, #7, #9. Again, similar (but slightly worse) than Tiki
Riggins career rushing is 11,352 all-time, good enough for 13th place. He also did it in 21 more games then Barber.
Riggins only had about 2,000 career receiving yards, only finishing in the top-10 in yards from scrimmage once. He was never really the duel threat back that Tiki is.


Riggins was certainly never the best back in the league,

These are just two examples that Tiki compares very favorably with. If your knock against Tiki is that he didn't play long enough, I may be able to buy that - I think that is the only thing that may keep him out. If your knock is that he wasn't dominant, well, first I'd argue that he was, and if you still disagree, then I think your standards are too high.

[CCN]

I like the Lenny Moore comparison. Moore wasn't Jim Brown or Jim Taylor, as Barber is not LT or Emmitt Smith. But his versatility allowed him to be extremely productive year-in, year-out. It makes him a better candidate than former Giant OJ Anderson, among others.
I wouldn't say he's one of the grunts. I'd say he's been one of the five or so best backs his entire career. Considering how short some stays were (like Priest Holmes, Jamal Anderson, Terell Davis) Barber's being this good his entire career is very valuable.
Thurman Thomas has had to wait, so Barber will, too. But he shouldn't have to wait too long.

[gridiron]

Barber has some strong credentials, I concede he is at least as good as Riggins, maybe better. Also, right now I might take Tiki but not LT or Alexander.

So I have high standards--they will make for some interesting discussions. BTW I was one who said no to Terrell Davis and I am not ready to enshrine T.Owens as a receiver.

[C. Snake]

Barber definetely has a chance, considering:

10,449 yards rushing, good for 18th best all-time

5,183 yards receiving, one of only three players with 10,000 yards rushing
and 5,000 yards receiving

15,632 total yards from scrimmage, good for 10th best all-time

4.7 yards per carry in his career

and better numbers than Marcus Allen and John Riggins.

[Seattle1]

I voted for "too close to tell." If he had been used as frequently and prominently in the Giants offense in the first several years of his career as he was in the latter half of his career, he might be a "yes" at this point. The other thing about him is he never really scored a prodigious amount of touchdowns like many other HoF RBs. If absolutely forced to choose, I would probably have to go with a "no" vote for Tiki.

[Man of Steal]

Tiki Barber's being used as a third down back early in his career to Ron Dayne (!!!) certainly is not helping him. If the coaching staff would have realized Dayne wasn't going to do a thing perhaps Barber would be a much more clear cut HOFer. I think Tiki Barber was probably a better back than Shaun Alexander was in his MVP 2005 year. I like Alexander but I always get the sense he (and especially that season) is somewhat overrated. The Seahawks had BY FAR the best offensive line in football that season. Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson were perhaps the two best offensive linemen, and Mack Strong also was an outstanding fullback and lead blocker. Alexander had that to his benfit and Barber did not. Alexander was also frequently taken out on thrid downs. That's supposed to be the "most valuable player"? Then there's the big difference in receiving output.

And the difference in rushing yards is only 20 yards anyway. The real reason Alexander won is that he had 27 TDs compared to Barber's 9. Not that I dismiss scoring touchdowns, but I think that in terms of player evaluation touchdowns are highly overused. Getting your team down the field in a position to score is really more impressive than actually scoring the TD. The majority of touchdowns aren't really more impressive than regular runs, they just happen to close the deal. Also Alexander's touchdowns, particularly those in short yardage, can also be largely attributable to his offensive line rather than him himself. I just think Tiki Barber was defeinitely a more valuable player in the 2005 season than Alexander.

[Man of Steal]

I am curious as to who you think shouldn't be in, once you have your list down. I think this is one of the few positions that may be under-represented, not over-represented.

Using your "Best in the league" theory, I'd like to compare Tiki to two HOFers.

First, Marcus Allen.


Tiki had 6 1,000 yard seasons. Marcus had 3
Tiki had 3 1,500 yard seasons. Marcus had 1
Both were in the top to in rushing four times. Marcus was #1,4,10,10. Tiki was #2,#4,#5,#7. Pretty close, especially considering that Tiki lost his title by only 20 yards, and Marcus won his by only 40 yards
They were both known as good receiving backs. They were both in the top-10 5 times in yards per scrimmage, with Marcus finishing #1, #1, #4, #6, #9 and Tiki finishing #1, #1, #4, #5, #8. Eerily similar
The only real edge to Marcus is that he out-rushed Tiki over his career 12,243 to 10,448 (10th all-time vs. 17th all-time) and out yard-from scrimmaged him 17,654 to 15,631 (6th all-time vs. 10th all-time). However, he did that in over 40% more games. Per game, Tiki rushed for 68 yards and received for 34 more. Per game, Marcus rushed for 55 yards and received 24 yards



I would definitely rank Barber over Marcus Allen. Allen is a personal favorite of mine actually (ever seen that Super Bowl cutback run? One of my favoite clips to watch), but I find it hard to consider Allen one of the true best backs. He was not exceptionally dominant in any year except in 1985, and in that time the quality of the leauge is a concern as many top players were in the USFL. Outside of 1985 Allen was a good but not great back.

One thing that I'm not quite sure how to put my finger on though is era comparisons. Looking through history (haven't done any formal study, but just looking at numbers) it appears that over the past 10-15 years or so 1000 yard seasons have become MUCH more common.

[Moose]

Tiki had a great career and he will join the greats in Canton, Ohio.

[Brooklyn]

One more stat to throw out:

Players averaging 100+ yards from scrimmage per game in career (min: 150 games):



Barry Sanders 118.9
Walter Payton 111.9
Marshall Faulk 108.8
Curtis Martin 103.8
Tiki Barber 101.5


Nice company.

And if you extend the list down to 90+, the list expands to Emmitt Smith, Tony Dorsett and Thurman Thomas. Again, nice company

[gridiron]

Jim Brown averaged over 100 yards from scrimmage without receiving yards--a complete list would be nice.

[Brooklyn]

Jim Brown averaged over 100 yards from scrimmage without receiving yards--a complete list would be nice.

But he didn't play in 150 games. The list is complete for those with 150 games, as I specified

[gridiron]

Any list that leaves out the greatest runner is history isn't complete.
Given the specification of number of games, it's a good list, but it doesn't give enough perspective on the great runners of all time.

[Brooklyn]

Any list that leaves out the greatest runner is history isn't complete.
Given the specification of number of games, it's a good list, but it doesn't give enough perspective on the great runners of all time.

I took the list from something I saw on ESPN.com. I don't disagree that Brown was spectacular, but this was trying to combine greatness with some longevity, which I think we can agree Brown didn't have

On the baseball forum, people frequently talk about the "decline" phase. I wouldn't expect to see it as much in football, because players just can't hang around as long. Once they are done, they are done. But averages like this will go down with longevity, which I think is one of the reasons for the 150 game minimum.

That said, I suspect Brown may have only gotten better, as he was still under 30 when he retired, and if he played the 3 or so more years to reach this artificial milestone of 150 games, there is no doubt in my mind that he would be on top of this list.

For completeness, I ran the list for people that have played 100+ games, and it is longer, but still an impressive list:



Brown, Jim (118 games) 125.5
James, Edgerrin (112 games) 120.0
Sanders, Barry (153 games) 118.9
Payton, Walter (190 games) 111.9
Faulk, Marshall (176 games) 108.8
Dickerson, Eric (146 games) 105.5
Taylor, Fred (112 games) 104.6
Martin, Curtis (168 games) 103.8
Watters, Ricky (144 games) 103.4
Holmes, Priest (108 games) 101.7
Barber, Tiki (154 games) 101.5
Simpson, OJ (135 games) 99.1

[Seattle1]

By the way, if you don't count his first season when he was still playing behind Ricky Watters (therefore deflating his overall averages), Shaun Alexander has averaged 108.82 yards from scrimmage per game. That's counting only his stats in the 90 games he's played in since his rookie season. Just thought I'd throw that out there. :D

[Brooklyn]

By the way, if you don't count his first season when he was still playing behind Ricky Watters (therefore deflating his overall averages), Shaun Alexander has averaged 108.82 yards from scrimmage per game. That's counting only his stats in the 90 games he's played in since his rookie season. Just thought I'd throw that out there. :D

It is tough to start with the "if you don't counts..." If you don't count Tiki's first three seasons where he wasn't the primary back (and only averaged 5.7 carried per game), his per game YFS average would be 122.2 - just behind Jim Brown for best all-time.

But of course, neither of those actually happened

[Seattle1]

It is tough to start with the "if you don't counts..." If you don't count Tiki's first three seasons where he wasn't the primary back (and only averaged 5.7 carried per game), his per game YFS average would be 122.2 - just behind Jim Brown for best all-time.

But of course, neither of those actually happened

Actually I think you've made a worthwhile point about Tiki. Neither Tiki or Shaun could help it if their coaches chose not to use their abilities fully at the beginning of their careers. They're the boss.

[gridiron]

Thanks for the 100+ list. while I was orginally against Tike as a hall of famer as opposed to a hall of numbers guy, the evidence has changed my mind. I hope he gets in.

[Giants/Jets Legend]

I think he'll make it in but probably not on the first ballot. He could after at most 10 years though.

[gridiron]

I hope it doesn't take that long.

[Brooklyn]

Because of the whole football HOF voting process, it seems to take some guys longer than it should to get it.

[Maroneyfor6]

Barber was also known to fumble a lot, and that might be fresh in many writers minds come election time.