Should CFLers get consideration?

[Steve_Atwater]

During tonight's Canadian football league game between the Toronto Argonauts and the Montréal Alouettes, Toronto Quarterback Damon Allen (Marcus' brother BTW) surpassed the 70 000 passing yards plateau (he now stands at 70 112), becoming only the second quarterback in pro football ever to accomplish that, the other being Warren Moon (when you add CFL and NFL numbers).

The question I want to ask you guys is this: Should players who post staggering numbers (and I believe 70 000 yards passing- almost 9000 more than Marino- to be a staggering number) in the Canadian football league be considered for the pro football Hall of Fame?

Strickly speaking, it's the pro football hall of fame, not the american football hall of fame, or the NFL Hall of fame. So I don't believe there's a restriction in the sense that it's not a Hall solely for those who played football in the US. And the canadian football league is a professionnal league. What it boils down to is a little bit like the debate over wether or not Steve Mcnair should have been considered for the Heisman trophy despite the fact that he was not in division 1. Can a player who spent all his career in division II (the CFL) accomplishements be considered worthy of a place among the immmortals of the game.

I have to say I'm kind of on the fence on that one. Yes, the CFL is a division II circuit, and it's hard to believe that you can be an immortal of the game if you never played a down in division I. But if Allen, who might just be playing the best football of his life at age 43, can keep playing one or two more years, surpass Moon and reach 75 000 passing yards, then I believe he should get serious consideration. I'm not saying the doors to the Hall should be wide open to CFL players. But when a CFL player reaches a milestone no NFL player has ever reached, despite the caliber being considerably lower, then I believe voters should give him a hard long look.

[D.C.]

With numbers like that dare I say he'd be a lock for the Canadian football hall of fame. Wouldn't that suffice?

When you say that "when a CFL player reaches a milestone no NFL player has ever reached, despite the caliber being considerably lower, then I believe voters should give him a hard long look.", would the same thing apply for an arena league player or how about a guy that dominated NFL Europe?

Whilst there are differences between the two sports (Canadian and pro football) the differences aren't so great that if a CFL player was snapped up by the NFL he couldn't make the necessary adjustments. Therefore in the eyes of the hall of fame, if he didn't make it to (or play for extemnded periods in) the NFL he probably wasn't THAT good (for lack of a better term).

[Steve_Atwater]

Well, Damon Allen is a shoe-in for Hamilton (the canadian football HOF) if there ever was one. That's a gimme. But I'm pretty sure he would welcome a little recognition in his native land.

As far as arena league and NFL Europe are concerned, if a guy in either those leagues had rushed for 20 000 yards over his career, or scored 500 TD's or something, then I do believe he should get some attention. After all, a player like that would have a place in history. In fine prints perhaps, but still. Reminds me a little bit of homeruns in baseball. Hank Aaron is the all-time Major league home run king, but the all-time, professional baseball home run king is Saddaharu (SP?) Oh. So Oh, altough the pitching wasn't what he would have faced had he played in the Majors, still has a place somewhere in baseball history. Only guy ever to hit 800 (documented) home runs in professional baseball. No one can take that away from him. And if you have a place somewhere in the history of your sport (for reasons that are not in the realm of "the guy who got the most airline stewardess pregnant"), then I think you should get some votes.

[Willie]

No.

Canadian Football is too different. Larger field, no 4th downs, the rouge, etc.
It's like comparing baseball to softball or ice hockey to street hockey.

It is called the Pro Football Hall of Fame because the NFL had rival leagues, of which some featured eventual NFL teams.

There were three AFLs prior to the 1960-69 AFL.
First one- 1926
Second one- 1936-37
Third one- 1940-41

When the first one was shut down the New York Yankees merged into the NFL.
The Cleveland Rams came from the second AFL. They were accepted into the NFL on February 12, 1937 after a 5-2-2 season in the AFL.
Then you had the AAFC. That league was in existence from 1946-49 and the San Francisco 49ers, Baltimore Colts (the first Colts franchise only existed in 1950; the current Colts franchise began in 1953) and Cleveland Browns merged into the NFL for the 1950 season.

Then the fourth and most successful AFL came into existence right around the time the PFHOF was built.

It is called the Pro Football Hall of Fame, but it is understood that it is really the NFL Hall of Fame.

[tdk1984]

As far as arena league and NFL Europe are concerned, if a guy in either those leagues had rushed for 20 000 yards over his career, or scored 500 TD's or something, then I do believe he should get some attention.

The NFL Europe is a training league for the NFL. No one will rush for 20k yards or score 500 TD's over there. By the time they got close, they'd have gotten a serious stab in the NFL, and probably stick.

[football junkie]

Yes players from the CFL should be admitted, if qualified. It is the afterall, as has been pointed out earlier, the Pro Football Hall of Fame -- not the NFL HOF.

Yes the rules in the CFL are a little different than those of the NFL but in MLB the rules for the American League are a little different than those of the National League -- the designated hitter -- yet we don't say no AL players should be allowed into Cooperstown.

Yes a lot of the players in the CFL are not the same caliber of player as those in the NFL but some of them are. Hall of Fame quarterback Warren Moon played in the CFL. And I think Warren Moon's induction has already made this a moot point. A big part of why Moon was inducted was all the success he had in the CFL, winning five straight Grey Cups.

Another examples is Bud Grant. He began his coaching career in the CFL, eventually moved to the NFL and ended up in Canton.

In a couple of years a judgment will be made on Doug Flutie who played in the CFL for most of his career and put up outstanding numbers and won three Grey Cups, then came to the states and started at QB for several NFL teams, including the Buffalo Bills whom he lead to the playoffs in 1998 and 1999. With Flutie's combined CFL & NFL stats and wins -- he will likely be inducted. Then the question will be settled for good.

[RedSoxVT92]

Yes players from the CFL should be admitted, if qualified. It is the afterall, as has been pointed out earlier, the Pro Football Hall of Fame -- not the NFL HOF.

Yes the rules in the CFL are a little different than those of the NFL but in MLB the rules for the American League are a little different than those of the National League -- the designated hitter -- yet we don't say no AL players should be allowed into Cooperstown.

Yes a lot of the players in the CFL are not the same caliber of player as those in the NFL but some of them are. Hall of Fame quarterback Warren Moon played in the CFL. And I think Warren Moon's induction has already made this a moot point. A big part of why Moon was inducted was all the success he had in the CFL, winning five straight Grey Cups.

Another examples is Bud Grant. He began his coaching career in the CFL, eventually moved to the NFL and ended up in Canton.

In a couple of years a judgment will be made on Doug Flutie who played in the CFL for most of his career and put up outstanding numbers and won three Grey Cups, then came to the states and started at QB for several NFL teams, including the Buffalo Bills whom he lead to the playoffs in 1998 and 1999. With Flutie's combined CFL & NFL stats and wins -- he will likely be inducted. Then the question will be settled for good.

Totally agree. I believe that it doesnt matter where you play as long as you are a great player. The CFL is a very talented league. And they arent just a "minor league" for a long time they had around money as the NFL and could get great talents into Canada. Sure the tables have turned in more recent years as the NFL have made more money from all the T.V. contracts with major networks but none the less they still garner alot of talent and should be taken seriously when it comes to the Pro Hall of Fame. If they have the talent and accomplished enough, give them what they deserve.

[Willie]

Moon and Grant are in partly due to their CFL accomplishments?

News to me.

[football junkie]

Moon and Grant are in partly due to their CFL accomplishments?

News to me.

Then apparently you haven't been paying much attention. Did you watch the induction ceremony? Did you see how many times Moon's CFL experiences were mentioned?

Do some research. Read his Pro Football Hall of Fame biography. Part of it reads thus: "Prior to the 1978 NFL Draft, some NFL scouts suggested that since University of Washington quarterback Warren Moon had played in a rollout rather than a drop-back passing offense, he would be a mid-round pick. Others speculated that since only one African American quarterback, James Harris, had achieved any measurable success in the NFL, Moon would have to play some other position. Regardless of which misguided reason motivated NFL scouts, Moon remained confident of his abilities and opted to sign with the Edmonton Eskimos of the Canadian Football League. He went on to lead the Eskimos to an unprecedented five consecutive Grey Cup victories."

That's word-for-word, direct from his biography on the Pro Football Hall of Fame Website. Yet you don't think it effected the vote?

[Willie]

That's word-for-word, direct from his biography on the Pro Football Hall of Fame Website. Yet you don't think it effected the vote?

No, I don't.

If it did, we'd see many CFL players in the PFHOF.

It got noted in his bio just as a point of reference or background info, just as it mentioned where he played his college ball.

[football junkie]

The only way we're going to know this for sure is when Doug Flutie comes up for induction in a couple years. If he goes in we're going to know for sure that it's because of what he did in the CFL. If he doesn't go in, than maybe you're right.

[BigMac]

i believe that damon allen should be elected into the pro football hall of fame, and it is called the pro football hall of fame and last i checked, the cfl was pro football.

if allen passes warren moon, he'll have more passing yards then anyone in that has ever donned a pro football jersey. it shouldnt matter what PRO league it is. if some dude had passed for 80,000 career yards in some other pro league, he should be in and so should damon.

[Willie]

i believe that damon allen should be elected into the pro football hall of fame, and it is called the pro football hall of fame and last i checked, the cfl was pro football.

if allen passes warren moon, he'll have more passing yards then anyone in that has ever donned a pro football jersey. it shouldnt matter what PRO league it is. if some dude had passed for 80,000 career yards in some other pro league, he should be in and so should damon.

It is called the PFHOF as opposed to the NFLHOF for reasons I've stated earlier.
Here's another reason-
The Canton Bulldogs were a pro football powerhouse before they joined the APFA/NFL. The Hall was also to recognize pre-NFL pro football.

Allen will go to the PFHOF the same way I will- by buying a ticket.

[boomer]

The only way we're going to know this for sure is when Doug Flutie comes up for induction in a couple years. If he goes in we're going to know for sure that it's because of what he did in the CFL. If he doesn't go in, than maybe you're right.
I seriously doubt if Flutie makes it.

[football junkie]

So do I. But if he's inducted that would indicate a sea-change.

[Willie]

Analogies I can make to try to help you fellows realize the PFHOF really is the NFL Hall of Fame:


MLB's champion is decided in a series of 7 games called the World Series
the Big 10 has not 10, but 11 teams
the National Hockey League is actually an international league
the Dallas Cowboys play in the NFC East
I drive on the Garden State Parkway and park in my driveway
jumbo shrimp are still small


My point is many things do not have ideal names.

The PFHOF does have exhibits on things that happened in other leagues. However, players will not be inducted into the PFHOF based on CFL accomplishments.
This is due to several reasons with these being the main ones:

the CFL has its own Hall of Fame
if the player was good he'd play in the NFL (the idea here being, "Why should we induct this guy into the *de facto NFL Hall of Fame if he couldn't cut it in the NFL? After all, we are honoring the very best players here.")
the Canadian game is too different (in my opinion, it is significantly different)


*The Pro Football Hall of Fame is the de facto NFL Hall of Fame.

Note: I see Casey Printers couldn't handle the NFL. He was awful in the preseason and was cut today by the Chiefs. To my understanding, he was a big time player in the CFL.

I do not want to dump on the CFL. I'm just being truthful about the whole thing. It is what it is.

[football junkie]

You have some valid points. But if we're making cross-sports comparison's than, think about this. 14 years ago our NBA's Olympic Dream Team swept the world and destoryed ever team it faced. Team USA was winning by over a 100 points in most games. The basketball leagues in Europe were simply "inferior."

Now only a little more than a decade latter we send our best NBA players into the Olympics and the World's Basketball Championsip and we get creamed everytime. Europe & China have caught up and quick.

Now I'm not saying 14 years from now the CFL is going to be able to field a team capable of destroying any NFL team, I'm just saying the league is certainly getting better, more talent, better coaches, most importantly more money.

If NFL franchise owners and a few CFL owners see NFL expansion or a partial merger as profitable, it will happen overnight. That could easily bring parity and parody to Toronto and other CFL franchises within the next decade.

And then maybe we can lose at football like we lose at everything else internationally.

[Willie]

If NFL franchise owners and a few CFL owners see NFL expansion or a partial merger as profitable, it will happen overnight. That could easily bring parity and parody to Toronto and other CFL franchises within the next decade.



I think the only way that would happen would be if the CFL was about to go under. Under that scenario I could see one or two CFL franchises being merged into the NFL. All the best CFL players would go to that team or teams.

Then they'd be able to sign a few free agents just like the established NFL teams. Then they could get the top pick(s) in the draft.

Then they'd have to adjust to the NFL rules, which would mean shortening their home field(s).

***

You are saying, however, that you think it could be feasible that the CFL, while healthy, could merge with the NFL. I do not see that at all. That would kill the CFL. Think about that from the CFL fans' perspective. The league's best 1 or 2 teams go join the NFL? It would kill the CFL. (It would be like us losing the Yankees and Dodgers to Japan.)

I believe that if the CFL merged with the NFL in any way, the CFL would cease to exist.

[CFL Fan]

Being a Canadian and obvious CFL fan, I would say both halls should be kept seperate for their own respective players and coaches. For those that are in both Halls, it's from their accomplishments in both leagues, i.e. Moon, Grant.

Certainly the calibre of play is probably much closer than many may wish to admit as the majority who have played in both leagues have performed fairly similar on either side of the border over the years, ie Frank Tripucka, Tobin Rote, Kapp, Theismann, Ferragamo. Recent players like Jeff Garcia, have had on and off again success on both sides. Doug Flutie is one of the few excpetions, but is probably based more on his and the Canadian games style of play. Printers caught most by surprise in the CFL becasue he was an injury replacment off the bench and no one knew him. If he stayed another year, I think his success would have been substantially less based on the amount of game film and opposing defences knowledge of how Printers played.

[Willie]

re#19

I have not researched it properly but there's gotta be a long list of NFL rejects who played well in the CFL. Many of the CFL players are guys who got cut in NFL training camps. So I wouldn't agree that most players who played in each league had the same type of success.

Of course, there are guys like Ferragamo and Moon and Flutie.

Then there are guys like Tom Cousineau, Rocket Ismail, and Johnny Rodgers who were big in college and went up north before surfacing in the NFL.

[CFL Fan]

re#19

I have not researched it properly but there's gotta be a long list of NFL rejects who played well in the CFL. Many of the CFL players are guys who got cut in NFL training camps. So I wouldn't agree that most players who played in each league had the same type of success.

Of course, there are guys like Ferragamo and Moon and Flutie.

Then there are guys like Tom Cousineau, Rocket Ismail, and Johnny Rodgers who were big in college and went up north before surfacing in the NFL.

Well today... most players will seek the NFL ranks before the CFL based on earning potential alone. Certainly that wasn't the case until the 80's when NFL television revenue ballooned. Before, both leagues could fight fairly equally for top talent, i.e. Theismann, Cousineau.

Today, based solely on dollars alone,the CFL just couldn't pull a Terry Metcalf away from the NFL who was in his prime. Even then, Terry didn't put up any better numbers than he did in the NFL, slightly worse actually. As for today, guys like Ricky Williams have not shone performance wise (more along the lines of not being impressive at all), even before his injury, or an Onterrio Smith who was cut in training camp.... to a Joe Horn whose first years numbers in the CFL are similar to what he does in the NFL today, but again, we would never get him back now based on dollars.

Marv Levy is probably one guy now that may deserve both HOF's. He has Canton down, but no Canadian HOF yet, which is probably unfortunate. Although with only 5 years of head coaching in Canada, it's probably not enough to warrant inclusion.... I don't know.

[Argonaut Fan]

Something we can take from this: Maybe the whole thing shoud be decided by changing the name to "The NFL HOF". That would solve the whole problem. But for argument's sake, I will assume that the Pro Football HOF (PFHOF) is not reserved for NFL players.

As to the people calling the CFL a "minor-league". I ask you this: Why didn't Ricky Williams dominate the league? Because it's a different game. It's not any better or any worse.

The reason that no "good" (in your opinions) players play in the CFL, is that evey American kid dreams of playing in the NFL. You don't see kids in Canada dreaming of playing Hockey in Europe, and you don't see American kids dreaming of playing CFL.

Also, the Canadian game is more pass-happy (because of the fact that there are only three downs). But this doesn't mean that Allen should be disallowed from the PFHOF. As someone said already, should a lifetime DH be allowed into the MLB HOF? That's your decision, but it does happen. Same thing/

[Curtis from Sask]

If numbers like Damon's were a regular occurance in he CFL, then I would would say he wouldn't deserve to be inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. If the rules were so different that QB's threw for 500 yards and 6 TD's each and every games, then the different rules argument would hold more water. As it stands, Damon has reached accomplishments that very few people on either side of the border have ever done. He should be spoken of in the same breath as the all-time greats in either league. and deserves Pro Football Hall of Fame consideration.

[football junkie]

While I agree completely with you that he deserves, "consideration", I don't think he deserves induction. Simply because I don't think he compares to players like Warren Moon, Joe Montana, John Elway or even Doug Flutie.

I'd be surpised if in his best year he could have made an NFL team as a back up quarterback. But yes, he deserves consideration because as I've pointed about seemingly about a million times -- it's the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

[Willie]

...as I've pointed about seemingly about a million times -- it's the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

Yeah, but, it is really the NFL Hall of Fame when he comes right down to the induction part of it.

The PFHOF will recognize other leagues with displays and stuff, but that's it.

I see here that I am up against some Canadian fans. I don't care to fight the battle myself. Hopefully, more people will join this site and back me up as I happen to be 100% right on this subject.

Ahh, you'll find out sooner or later when Damon Allen doesn't get anywhere close to receiving induction into a Hall of Fame which he has no right being inducted into.

[football junkie]

I see here that I am up against some Canadian fans. I don't care to fight the battle myself. Hopefully, more people will join this site and back me up as I happen to be 100% right on this subject.

I feel I should make my position more clear because we might share the same idea. I am merely saying that a CFL player should be able to receive "consideration".

I don't think any will ever get elected based solely on a CFL career -- unless there is a major change in the quality of the league and it somehow achieves parity with the NFL. (Something I think will likely never happen. But stranger things have happened, like our best NBA and MLB players losing in one international competition after another.)

[efin98]

Yeah, but, it is really the NFL Hall of Fame when he comes right down to the induction part of it.

Where is it written that they are to be excluded? Where does it specifically state that it is for NFL Hall of Famers ONLY?

You can't show it. It doesn't exist. It's a misconception. It's wrong.

The PFHOF will recognize other leagues with displays and stuff, but that's it.

Including noting their statistics, milestones, inducting those who have spent a large chunk of their careers in those other leagues(especially the AAFC and AFL guys).

I see here that I am up against some Canadian fans. I don't care to fight the battle myself. Hopefully, more people will join this site and back me up as I happen to be 100% right on this subject.

It's not only Canadian fans, US fans have also gone against you on this.

[Willie]

With the mergers the NFL officially recognized the AFL stats and to a lesser extent the AAFC stats.

You'd have a point if players were being inducted based on WFL and USFL and XFL performances.


Why is it not called the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame?
How come no players from the Japanese and Cuban and Dominican and Mexican leagues, etc. are inducted to the Baseball Hall of Fame?

[efin98]

With the mergers the NFL officially recognized the AFL stats and to a lesser extent the AAFC stats.

You'd have a point if players were being inducted based on WFL and USFL and XFL performances.

The key word there is YET. They can and probably will have several people who made their marks in both leagues who will be considered for induction.

Why is it not called the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame?
How come no players from the Japanese and Cuban and Dominican and Mexican leagues, etc. are inducted to the Baseball Hall of Fame?


They haven't broken the barrier yet to get over their US-only leaning. There are remarkable cases in other countries of people who would be worthy of induction.

They broke with the MLB-only garbage before by inducting those who played in the Negro Leagues before they were fully organized and were on no level with the majors, they will break with their MLB-only stance again and let in foreigners.

Same with the NFL. Get the blinders and ignorance out of the vote and you will have others from football in the Hall of Fame who are deserving.

[Curtis from Sask]

Ahh, you'll find out sooner or later when Damon Allen doesn't get anywhere close to receiving induction into a Hall of Fame which he has no right being inducted into.
So he doesn't deserve it because it won't happen. So then, taking this method of analysis we can apply it to a theoretical everyday situation. we'll look at the vehicle I drive. It needs the fuel filter changed. I can't be bothered to do it right now, so, by what you said, it clearly does not need to be changed because It won't happen.

With me on that? It just sounds kinda strange to me.

[Willie]

The reason I only stop by once in a while is because of this thread.

You guys really think Damon Allen belongs in the same Hall of Fame with the likes of Sammy Baugh and Jim Brown and Lance Alworth and Dick Butkus and Joe Montana? C'mon now.

I realize you guys are big CFL backers, but get real.



So he doesn't deserve it because it won't happen. So then, taking this method of analysis we can apply it to a theoretical everyday situation. we'll look at the vehicle I drive. It needs the fuel filter changed. I can't be bothered to do it right now, so, by what you said, it clearly does not need to be changed because It won't happen.

With me on that? It just sounds kinda strange to me.

Yeah. Not sure I wrote that Damon Allen "doesn't deserve it because it won't happen."
I wrote that he won't come close to being inducted. Not anywhere close. He will never be considered for even a second.
Then I added that he has no right to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. He did not play in a league that the Pro Football Hall of Fame voters care about and/or consider to be a major league.

[Willie]

The key word there is YET. They can and probably will have several people who made their marks in both leagues who will be considered for induction.



They haven't broken the barrier yet to get over their US-only leaning. There are remarkable cases in other countries of people who would be worthy of induction.

They broke with the MLB-only garbage before by inducting those who played in the Negro Leagues before they were fully organized and were on no level with the majors, they will break with their MLB-only stance again and let in foreigners.

Same with the NFL. Get the blinders and ignorance out of the vote and you will have others from football in the Hall of Fame who are deserving.


You don't understand the AFL and AAFC situation. The AFL merged with the NFL and so did the stats. The AAFC doesn't get looked at quite the same because only 3/8ths of the teams merged with the NFL.

The NFL and PFHOF don't pay any mind to the USFL.

The Negro Leagues were not exactly rival leagues but I'll give you that one, though. First halfway decent point any of you had in this thread.

The PFHOF has the NFL stamp all over it.
There are no blinders and ignorance in the vote.

Tell me how Damon Allen belongs with the players in the PFHOF.

Tell me how he put numbers up playing in an inferior league on a larger field with different rules. Tell me how he couldn't make it in the NFL, yet he belongs in the PFHOF with the greatest players in NFL/AFL/AAFC history.

[Willie]

I may have mentioned this earlier in the thread (or in another thread), but I will reiterate it.

The CFL has its own Hall of Fame, you know.

[Seattle1]

I may have mentioned this earlier in the thread (or in another thread), but I will reiterate it.

The CFL has its own Hall of Fame, you know.

That's the appropriate thing, CFL football is a little different sport. A different field, different rules.

[CFL Fan]

That's the appropriate thing, CFL football is a little different sport. A different field, different rules.

The sports the same, but ABSOLUTELY the game played is different, and requires different skill sets than many of those in the NFL. Some are the same.... a Joe Horn can do just as well performance wise in either league.

Many other players in the past and presently have had playing experience in both leagues, which very few fans would realize I'm sure. In the end, almost all players will want to play for the most money they can get, which will automatically default them to seek employment in the NFL, not necessarily to play against the 'perceived' best players. Does the CFL lag the NFL in regards to skill level... overall probably, the biggest difference being in backup role positions, or reserve players. The CFL also hampers it's overall skill level with the Canadian content, or import ratio, however, the growth of minor football throughout Canada over the years has certainly helped enhance the quality of Canadian player content today.

Either way, I'm still for seperating leagues and who qualifies and who doesn't. Whatever, league you have played in, you should be considered for that hall of fame only. If it's been in both leagues, you should be considered for both, and presumabely, if you have had enormous success on one side of the border, you have likely experienced success on the other side.

[Ladder]

LMAO! People are actually saying CFL players belong in the Pro Football Hall of Fame? :eek:

[CCN]

LMAO! People are actually saying CFL players belong in the Pro Football Hall of Fame? :eek:
No, they're saying they should at least receive consideration.

[Ladder]

No, they're saying they should at least receive consideration.
LMAO! People are actually saying CFL players deserve consideration for the Pro Football Hall of Fame? :eek:

Is this forum also a marijuana forum?

[football junkie]

Is this forum also a marijuana forum?

Oh don't even get us started on the grass vs. turf debate!

[CCN]

LMAO! People are actually saying CFL players deserve consideration for the Pro Football Hall of Fame? :eek:

Is this forum also a marijuana forum?
Just because you're ignorant on the subject . . .

[Ladder]

Just because you're ignorant on the subject . . .

I can see why that other guy is getting pissed off. Some of you guys are out of your minds here.

Can any of you guys find anything written by a serious writer, especially maybe a writer who has a Pro Football Hall of Fame vote, wherein the guy talks about CFLers deserving considersation?

I found this forum only a week ago and if this is the type of football talk I'm getting here, I will leave. This is just not good.

[CCN]

[QUOTE=Ladder]I can see why that other guy is getting pissed off. Some of you guys are out of your minds here.

Can any of you guys find anything written by a serious writer, especially maybe a writer who has a Pro Football Hall of Fame vote, wherein the guy talks about CFLers deserving considersation?

I found this forum only a week ago and if this is the type of football talk I'm getting here, I will leave. This is just not good.[/QUOTE
Then why don't you try to start the discussion as opposed to one-sentence comments? If you have a problem with CFL'ers getting consideration, how about saying why? And backing it up.

[Ladder]

The other guy sums it up pretty good. The CFL has many different rules, the players are not of the same quality, nobody in their right mind thinks the Canadian sport is on the NFL's level, it is not considered a major league (in the sense that it would receive major coverage and stuff of that nature), and the Pro Football Hall of Fame really is the NFL Hall of Fame.

I don't know why you are having trouble grasping this unless you work for the CFL or something. The CFL is to the NFL as the Mexico League is to Major League Baseball.

[CCN]

The other guy sums it up pretty good. The CFL has many different rules, the players are not of the same quality, nobody in their right mind thinks the Canadian sport is on the NFL's level, it is not considered a major league (in the sense that it would receive major coverage and stuff of that nature), and the Pro Football Hall of Fame really is the NFL Hall of Fame.

I don't know why you are having trouble grasping this unless you work for the CFL or something. The CFL is to the NFL as the Mexico League is to Major League Baseball.
Hey, that's all I was asking for. A counterargument. Thanks. I would've worded it a little more respectfully, but at least you make your valid point.
If this site is to succeed, it needs to go beyond the simple comments and have actual engaging discussions. I don't agree with everyone on this board on a lot of things, but at least issues are thrown out there in a manner they can be discussed. That's the contributions that are valued here.

[football junkie]

I don't know why you are having trouble grasping this unless you work for the CFL or something.

To be read in the voice of Edward G. Robinson: "The jig is up fellas. He's blown our cover, see. He knows we're all secret agents working for the CFL! We all better scram before the NFL gets a whiff of this."

[brady_branch]

The other guy sums it up pretty good. The CFL has many different rules

And these "different rules" are the main reason why Damon Allen's stats are so impressive.

the players are not of the same quality, nobody in their right mind thinks the Canadian sport is on the NFL's level

Then remind me, how can an NFL superstar go to the CFL and be utterly inconsequential?

it is not considered a major league (in the sense that it would receive major coverage and stuff of that nature)

American bias. Pure and simple.

and the Pro Football Hall of Fame really is the NFL Hall of Fame.

Where does it say NFL in the name?

The CFL is to the NFL as the Mexico League is to Major League Baseball

This actually contradicts your argument. There are people in the MLB HoF from leagues about as good as the Mexican League, people like Martin Dihigo and Pop Lloyd. So why can't Damon Allen make it?

[Ladder]

And these "different rules" are the main reason why Damon Allen's stats are so impressive.
Yeah, right.




Then remind me, how can an NFL superstar go to the CFL and be utterly inconsequential?
You are basing this on who, a marijuana addict who is past his prime?



American bias. Pure and simple.
Fine.



Where does it say NFL in the name?
The other guy said why and I agree with him. I don't know why you CFL people can't read.




This actually contradicts your argument. There are people in the MLB HoF from leagues about as good as the Mexican League, people like Martin Dihigo and Pop Lloyd. So why can't Damon Allen make it?
Dihigo and Lloyd were not allowed to play in the Major Leagues due to segregation. Damon Allen couldn't play in the NFL because he sucks.




Lay off the drugs, brady_branch.

I asked you CFL guys something earlier in this thread. You haven't come through yet.

Can any of you guys find anything written by a serious writer, especially maybe a writer who has a Pro Football Hall of Fame vote, wherein the guy talks about CFLers deserving consideration?

Produce one, Jethro.

[brady_branch]

Yeah, right.
What would Peyton Manning do if he only had two downs on which to throw the football, instead of three? You throw an incompletion on first down, you'd better complete it on second, or you'll punt.

You are basing this on who, a marijuana addict who is past his prime?

Ever heard of Warren Moon? The guy was pretty good. He was a star in the CFL, and he was a star in the NFL. Now, was he a "marijuana addict who was past his prime"?

The other guy said why and I agree with him. I don't know why you CFL people can't read.

The CFL is a form of pro football. Therefore, CFL players deserve to be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, if they're good enough. And I can read, I just choose not to. :D

Dihigo and Lloyd were not allowed to play in the Major Leagues due to segregation. Damon Allen couldn't play in the NFL because he sucks.

Does anyone know just how good Dihigo and Lloyd were? Sure, they put up great numbers, but they were in inferior leagues. So by this argument, they don't deserve induction. OK. I see where you're coming from now.

[Ladder]

What would Peyton Manning do if he only had two downs on which to throw the football, instead of three? You throw an incompletion on first down, you'd better complete it on second, or you'll punt.
I will not even address something where you compare Peyton Manning to Damon Allen.



Ever heard of Warren Moon? The guy was pretty good. He was a star in the CFL, and he was a star in the NFL. Now, was he a "marijuana addict who was past his prime"?

WOW!!! This is totally NOT what you were talking about. Let me remind you:
"how can an NFL superstar go to the CFL and be utterly inconsequential?"
You were talking about Ricky Williams.
You were NOT talking about Warren Moon.

I liked how you flipped it real quick like that.

[Ladder]

The CFL is a form of pro football. Therefore, CFL players deserve to be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, if they're good enough. And I can read, I just choose not to.

Hey, if you're that ignorant.



Does anyone know just how good Dihigo and Lloyd were? Sure, they put up great numbers, but they were in inferior leagues. So by this argument, they don't deserve induction. OK. I see where you're coming from now.

They were not in inferior leagues.

[Ladder]

Produce one, Jethro.

[brady_branch]

They were not in inferior leagues.

Yes, they were.

[brady_branch]

I will not even address something where you compare Peyton Manning to Damon Allen.

I'm not comparing them skill-wise, just wondering what Manning's stats would look like if he played in the CFL.


WOW!!! This is totally NOT what you were talking about. Let me remind you:
"how can an NFL superstar go to the CFL and be utterly inconsequential?"
You were talking about Ricky Williams.
You were NOT talking about Warren Moon.

I liked how you flipped it real quick like that.

OK, so now I'm not allowed to introduce new arguments? Ricky Williams was, and probably still is capable of being, a great player in the NFL. However, he did next to nothing in the CFL (only two TDs). Warren Moon was great in the CFL, and he was great in the NFL. If Damon Allen can pass for all those yards in the CFL, he should be able to be pretty good in the NFL, following the example of Warren Moon. And he at least deserves CONSIDERATION. I'm not saying he should be INDUCTED. If Dihigo and Lloyd, among others, can be inducted into the MLB HoF, why can't Damon Allen be inducted into the PFHoF? If they were that dominant in "inferior leagues", then they should be in.

[Argonaut Fan]

Pro Football HOF Selection Process (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/selectionprocess.jsp)
Charged with the vital task of continuing to be sure that new enshrinees are the finest the game has produced is the Pro Football Hall of Fame's 40-person Board of Selectors (see list below).

The Board consists of one media representative from each pro football city with two from New York, inasmuch as that city has two teams in the National Football League. A 33rd member is a representative of the Pro Football Writers of America and there are seven at-large delegates.

With the exception of the PFWA representative who is appointed for a two-year term, all appointments are of the open-end variety and can be terminated only by retirement or resignation, as long as the member continues to attend meetings regularly.

The Board of Selectors meets annually at the time of the Super Bowl to elect new members. There is no set number for any class of enshrinees but, the Board's current ground rules do stipulate that between three and six new members will be selected each year. The 1973 and 1976 classes of three were the smallest ever named.

Every candidate is carefully scrutinized and must receive at least 80 percent approval of the Board at the annual meeting before he can be elected. A scale of negative votes for elimination that will vary depending on the number of Selectors in attendance is used.

When the Selectors meet in South Florida next February to name the Class of 2007, they will have before them a roster of 17 final candidates, along with detailed biographies on each. To assure that older players will be considered along with the younger breed, the Seniors Committee - made up of nine veteran members of the overall Selection Committee - have named two nominees from the pre-1982 era to be included on the final list.

The other finalists will be the survivors from a preliminary list of candidates that the Board will have screened by mail ballot. That original list will have been in part provided by the fans themselves.

A slight modification to the bylaws in August 2006 resulted in an increase to 17 finalists based on 15 modern-era candidates and two senior nominees being named. In the past, the finalists numbered 15 that included 13 modern-era candidates and the two senior nominees.

Any fan may nominate any qualified person who has been connected with pro football in any capacity simply by writing to the Pro Football Hall of Fame. The only restriction is that a player must have last played at least five seasons before he can be considered. For example, a candidate for the 2007 class must have concluded his career not later than the 2001 season.

For a non-player, there is no mandatory retirement period, but a coach must be retired before he may be considered. Every nomination received will be processed and forwarded to the Board of Selectors.

It is important to emphasize that the Hall of Fame itself has no say whatsoever as to who is or is not elected to membership. The only function of the staff is to process the nominations as they arrive and to coordinate the annual meeting.Nowhere does it say that the player has to be from the NFL. But I am going to try to contact someone from the HOF to ask whether or not the commitee gives consideration to players from other leagues.

[CCN]

Pro Football HOF Selection Process (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/selectionprocess.jsp)
Nowhere does it say that the player has to be from the NFL. But I am going to try to contact someone from the HOF to ask whether or not the commitee gives consideration to players from other leagues.
There has never been a strictly Canadian player who has made it as a finalist in the HOF voting process. As far back as I can tell, no strictly Canadian player has made it on to the preliminary ballot.

[efin98]

There has never been a strictly Canadian player who has made it as a finalist in the HOF voting process. As far back as I can tell, no strictly Canadian player has made it on to the preliminary ballot.

That doesn't mean that they haven't been given consideration nor does the rules say that they can't be given consideration.

[CCN]

That doesn't mean that they haven't been given consideration nor does the rules say that they can't be given consideration.
Maybe not, but in the years I've been following the HOF, I've never heard it mentioned. At all. I'd love to see the contrary but that doesn't seem to be out there. Just saying there's no rule against it doesn't mean they have been considered. If they have at all, it isn't much.

[Argonaut Fan]

I contacted a member of the Board of Selectors. They didn't know whether or not a CFL player was eligible for consideration. I am expecting a reply later this week, after said person investigates the matter (they were in Seattle covering the game for the weekend). I'll let you guys know what I get.

[Willie]

Hey, how 'bout all those CFLers who made the Hall of Fame yesterday?

_____________________________

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=894

Point 4: CFL stats don’t matter
Moon had a remarkable six-year career in the Canadian Football League, but it needs to be put into perspective. He was playing against inferior competition in a nine-team league. Wondering what would have happened if he had gone straight to the NFL is pointless, because no team was remotely interested in him until he refined his passing skills up there.

Moon is also frequently credited with guiding the Edmonton Eskimos to five consecutive Grey Cup victories between 1978 and 1982. In fact, the primary quarterback during the first two of those seasons was a gentleman named Tom Wilkinson.

Furthermore, no player has ever been enshrined in Canton for his success in the CFL, WFL, USFL, XFL or Arena League. While the building may be called the Pro Football Hall of Fame, it really only recognizes NFL contributions. Gridiron historians will remember that the league was called the American Professional Football Association when it was founded in 1920, and the NFL merged with the rival AFL in 1970.

[CCN]

Hey, how 'bout all those CFLers who made the Hall of Fame yesterday?

_____________________________

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=894
How about actually contributing something beyond that broken record of yours?

[Argonaut Fan]

Hey, how 'bout all those CFLers who made the Hall of Fame yesterday?I'm gonna wait to hear back from the member of the selection board that I e-mailed. I understand that you think the CFL is an inferior league. But Damon Allen passed for 70,000+ yards. I think that if anyone from the CFL deserves to get in, it's him.

We will wait and see what my e-mail contact says.

[Brooklyn]

I'm gonna wait to hear back from the member of the selection board that I e-mailed. I understand that you think the CFL is an inferior league. But Damon Allen passed for 70,000+ yards. I think that if anyone from the CFL deserves to get in, it's him.

We will wait and see what my e-mail contact says.

I'd be interested to hear what you find out.

My personal view is that the game is too different to compare stats. Allen's accomplishments are outstanding, but hard to say how that compares to the NFL game.

[Willie]

How about actually contributing something beyond that broken record of yours?

How about getting a clue?

[CCN]

How about getting a clue?
If having a clue means posting the same stuff over and over again, thanks, I'll stick to actually having a viewpoint and being able to talk about it.
Can you do the same? Prove it.

[Willie]

If having a clue means posting the same stuff over and over again, thanks, I'll stick to actually having a viewpoint and being able to talk about it.
Can you do the same? Prove it.
Did you read the first page of the thread? What more do I have to do to knock some sense in you?

Look, check out all my posts here. I thought this site had promise. What transpired in this thread soured me. You guys were successful in aggravating me. Congratulations! I realize many, many people get off that way. I am not new to message boards.
This thread got me more aggravated than any thread anywhere.
This thread bugs me because I am 100% right and I am being knocked around by multiple people who are 100% wrong.
At least one guy was on my side. Alas, it appears he couldn't deal with the b.s., either.

[CCN]

Did you read the first page of the thread? What more do I have to do to knock some sense in you?

Look, check out all my posts here. I thought this site had promise. What transpired in this thread soured me. You guys were successful in aggravating me. Congratulations! I realize many, many people get off that way. I am not new to message boards.
This thread got me more aggravated than any thread anywhere.
This thread bugs me because I am 100% right and I am being knocked around by multiple people who are 100% wrong.
At least one guy was on my side. Alas, it appears he couldn't deal with the b.s., either.
Fine. It's a dead issue. Why keep posting in a thread everyone has moved on from? The information isn't there to prove you're 100% right. But the evidence seen is on your side. What exactly do you want? An apology from everyone?

[C. Snake]

CFLs should definitly be in, like Negro Leagers are in the HOF in baseball.

[Brooklyn]

This thread bugs me because I am 100% right and I am being knocked around by multiple people who are 100% wrong.


You do realize that these are opinions and not facts? It is pretty arrogant to say your opinion is 100% right and other's opinions are 100% wrong. Just because people disagree with you doesn't make them wrong.

I happen to agree with you that CFLers don't deserve to be in the Pro Football HOF. But part of what makes this board interesting is hearing the views of people who disagree with my views. They probably won't get me to change my mind, but it does happen occasionally.

[Calif_Eagle]

Gentlemen.... Why dont we put this to the test once & for all? Write the Selection Committee, as the bylaws say ANY fan may do, & nominate a few players. Nominate Damon Allen, Cookie Gilchrist, Tobin Rote, Joe Kapp, & any other player you might feel has some or all of what it takes to make the HOF via either the CFL alone (Allen being a good test case), or else a combo CFL-NFL route (like Moon & Grant). In your letters, ask for a *public statement* on this issue to be made by the Committee, or some members if its divisive (& the Committee as a whole cant agree on a statement.) Rather than debate it, I see this as an opportunity to have the men who really count settle the question once & for all.

[Argonaut Fan]

Gentlemen.... Why dont we put this to the test once & for all? Write the Selection Committee, as the bylaws say ANY fan may do, & nominate a few players. Nominate Damon Allen, Cookie Gilchrist, Tobin Rote, Joe Kapp, & any other player you might feel has some or all of what it takes to make the HOF via either the CFL alone (Allen being a good test case), or else a combo CFL-NFL route (like Moon & Grant). In your letters, ask for a *public statement* on this issue to be made by the Committee, or some members if its divisive (& the Committee as a whole cant agree on a statement.) Rather than debate it, I see this as an opportunity to have the men who really count settle the question once & for all.That's kind of what I'm doing. Asking a member of the commitee to bring it up, and tell me whether or not they would give a CFL'er any consideration. I'm still waiting though...:crossfingers:

[Calif_Eagle]

My point was that by nominating a few players, CFL only & the NFL-CFL combo players I mentioned in my previous post, you will *compel* the Committee to deal with the issue. Rather than getting the opinion of 1 Committee member (which IS a Great step in the right direction, Argo Fan & is more than many of the posters here suggested) you will force the whole Committee to come to grips with the issue. Damon Allen in or not? If not, why? George Reed... (For example) in or not? Again, if not.. why? Did their CFL records help Moon & Grant? Would the combined CFL-NFL records of Gilchrist, Rote, Kapp & of course, the big test to come; Doug Flutie be enough to get them in ? (Kapp had an issue with signing a standard player contract as I recall that ended his NFL days a bit prematurely. He might never get in.) But there are enough other players with a dual CFL-NFL record to put it to the test. An avalanche of CFL nominees will surely provoke a policy statement on this issue. So.. if you want to see how they deal with it, nominate the CFL star of your choice! (Or I suppose you could instead write a letter saying how much you are bitterly opposed to such a thing...!)

[Willie]

You do realize that these are opinions and not facts? It is pretty arrogant to say your opinion is 100% right and other's opinions are 100% wrong. Just because people disagree with you doesn't make them wrong.

I happen to agree with you that CFLers don't deserve to be in the Pro Football HOF. But part of what makes this board interesting is hearing the views of people who disagree with my views. They probably won't get me to change my mind, but it does happen occasionally.

Where I got upset is with the posters who are disagreeing with me that the Pro Football Hall of Fame only inducts NFL players.

[Calif_Eagle]

Where I got upset is with the posters who are disagreeing with me that the Pro Football Hall of Fame only inducts NFL players.

Its pretty much true that in the past the "Pro Football" Hall of Fame has only honored NFL-AFL performers. Although, there are some men in the PFHOF that had substantial playing records in the All-American Football Conference of 1946 - 1949. Otto Graham, Marion Motley, Joe Perry all had top flight playing records in each league, I think Motley actually did more in the AAFC than he did in the NFL and he is IN. (EDIT: He did. I checked the record and he had only one All-Star caliber season in NFL play of 4 years played. He led the NFL in rushing in 1950 with 810 yards. He was All-NFL that year also. He is basically in the HOF for that year & for leading the AAFC in rushing 1 time in 1948 & being the All-AAFC Fullback each season. His Pro Ave. Per Carry of 5.7 was & may still be the highest of all time) So you have at least one example of a player who accomplished most of his career record outside the NFL and made the PFHOF anyway. Perhaps the only such example we will ever have. And the NFL does NOT recognize AAFC stats and records, but the PFHOF *DOES*. I'd still like to see some Canadian players nominated. And to see some men with dual NFL/AFL-CFL records nominated also like Tobin Rote and Cookie Gilchrist. I think both of these men have a case for induction, based on the totality of their careers. It will be interesting to see what happens when Doug Flutie becomes eligible too. Herschel Walker had big numbers in the USFL. Will that help him get in one day?

[CCN]

Its pretty much true that in the past the "Pro Football" Hall of Fame has only honored NFL-AFL performers. Although, there are some men in the PFHOF that had substantial playing records in the All-American Football Conference of 1946 - 1949. Otto Graham, Marion Motley, Joe Perry all had top flight playing records in each league, I think Motley actually did more in the AAFC than he did in the NFL and he is IN. (EDIT: He did. I checked the record and he had only one All-Star caliber season in NFL play of 4 years played. He led the NFL in rushing in 1950 with 810 yards. He was All-NFL that year also. He is basically in the HOF for that year & for leading the AAFC in rushing 1 time in 1948 & being the All-AAFC Fullback each season. His Pro Ave. Per Carry of 5.7 was & may still be the highest of all time) So you have at least one example of a player who accomplished most of his career record outside the NFL and made the PFHOF anyway. Perhaps the only such example we will ever have. And the NFL does NOT recognize AAFC stats and records, but the PFHOF *DOES*. I'd still like to see some Canadian players nominated. And to see some men with dual NFL/AFL-CFL records nominated also like Tobin Rote and Cookie Gilchrist. I think both of these men have a case for induction, based on the totality of their careers. It will be interesting to see what happens when Doug Flutie becomes eligible too. Herschel Walker had big numbers in the USFL. Will that help him get in one day?

Walker is an interesting case considering what he did in the USFL. Steve Young, Jim Kelly and Reggie White are already in, but it was their NFL careers that got them there. The USFL only lasted three seasons, so the impact was minimal.

If the AAFC had not been absorbed by the NFL, I'm not so sure the guys you mentioned would be in. If Donald Trump and Howard Cosell had their way, and the USFL had lasted longer, it might be a different story for the above-mentioned players. Walker was a fine player who will probably be remembered as being on the wrong end of the worst trade in NFL history, not the guy who rushed for over 2400 yeards one year for Trump's Generals.

The CFL has always been independent, and always should be. I've watched a little CFL over the years, growing up 20 minutes from Canada and the ever-powerful CBC. Is the quality of play/players truly comparable to the NFL, or is it more akin to the current WFL, a step or so down the talent ladder?

[brady_branch]

As I've said, Ricky Williams went to the CFL and didn't do much of anything. I think the CFL is a step down from the NFL, certainly, but not all that big of a step down.

[C. Snake]

As I've said, Ricky Williams went to the CFL and didn't do much of anything. I think the CFL is a step down from the NFL, certainly, but not all that big of a step down.

But was Ricky a great player, NFL or CFL? I'm saying only GREAT CFL players should be in the Hall, just like only GREAT NFL players should get into the Hall.

[Steel86town]

CFLs should definitly be in, like Negro Leagers are in the HOF in baseball.

That's different. Negro League players had no other option. That's like the Ichiro issue. If you took his stats in Japan and added them to his stats with the Seattle Mariners, then he would be a LOCK for the MLB hall of fame. BUT, Ichiro had years and years to come to play in America and he waited until he was, what, 30? If he keeps playing like he has for the next 3 seasons, he should make it in the Hall of Fame (he did just sign that contract with Seattle). If he retired today, he will never make it.

CFL players have that same option. I would like to see them in the (NFL) Pro Football Hall of Fame, but, unfortunately, if you just don't play a snap in the NFL but your career was OUTSTANDING in the CFL, you won't get in. I don't like it and I wish CFLers could be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, but it just doesn't work. Some don't last in the NFL. Warren Moon proved himself in the NFL and that is why he is in.

Dougs brother, Darren Flutie, was one of the best WRs in CFL history, but lasted one season in the NFL. He caught 18 passes and 2 TDs in 16 games with the Chargers in 1988. He couldn't handle the NFL, or so it seems. I would like to see him and Doug in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, but it looks like they and we (we, as in, fans who would like to see CFL players in the PFHoF) will have to settle with them in the CFL Hall of Fame, which I guess is quite alright.

[Galloping Ghost]

That's different. Negro League players had no other option. That's like the Ichiro issue. If you took his stats in Japan and added them to his stats with the Seattle Mariners, then he would be a LOCK for the MLB hall of fame. BUT, Ichiro had years and years to come to play in America and he waited until he was, what, 30? If he keeps playing like he has for the next 3 seasons, he should make it in the Hall of Fame (he did just sign that contract with Seattle). If he retired today, he will never make it.
That was an issue beyond Ichiro's control. Even if Ichiro wanted to come over to major leagues at a younger age he couldn't. In Japan the teams have much more control over its players. Players have to play nine years before becoming a free agent. Ichiro was actually 27 years old when he joined the Mariners for the 2001 season. If Ichiro retired today he wouldn't have the minimum 10 major league seasons necessary to be eligible for the Baseball Hall of Fame.


CFL players have that same option. I would like to see them in the (NFL) Pro Football Hall of Fame, but, unfortunately, if you just don't play a snap in the NFL but your career was OUTSTANDING in the CFL, you won't get in. I don't like it and I wish CFLers could be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, but it just doesn't work. Some don't last in the NFL. Warren Moon proved himself in the NFL and that is why he is in.
I have to agree here. The CFL is considered a minor league to most sports writers and football fans. The Negro Leagues were a different case because players like Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston and Satchel Paige were barred from the major leaguers simply because of their skin color and not because baseball GMs and scouts didn't think they were good enough. If major league teams were allowed to sign black players back then I can assure you these three players and many other Negro leaguers would have been signed to contracts. How many CFLers get signed to NFL contracts every year?

[football junkie]

In the spirit of "super Tuesday", let's put this to a vote -- on a new thread, cause this argument has been going on for a long, long time.

Let's settle it! We're reasonably intelligent people, our vote should count for something, or at least as much as a 45 semi-drunk sports writers.

[Galloping Ghost]

I'm just curious but how popular is the CFL in Canada? Does the CFL have a big TV contract? Are CFL players well known? Do CFL teams draw big crowds? Do the fans tailgate before games?

[stejay]

I think they should be allowed in. They play the same game, and some may be good enough for the hall. Anyway, there is not many, cos all the best players go the NFL.

[football junkie]

In the absence of NFL games I've been watching a lot of CFL games lately. And I've changed my mind. I now don't think CFL players should get consideration for the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

The game is just too different and the talent gap is far, far too wide. For example, can anybody even name this star player? From 1995 till 2007 he has 825 receptions, for 14,695 yards, and 141 touchdowns.

Anyone.....

It is Milt Stegall of the Winnipeg Blue Bombers. Match his raw numbers up and he compares to Tim Brown, Cris Carter, Marvin Harrison, maybe even Jerry Rice.

So why didn't Stegall ever play in the NFL? He did. From 1992 to 1994 he played for the Bengals. He racked up four receptions for 43 yards and one touchdown in his NFL career.

Stegall has been the best receiver in the CFL for the past decade and yet at best he was a fifth WR on a bad team in the NFL. The talent just isn't there. People like Warren Moon and Doug Flutie are the very rare exceptions.

[Ladder]

The game is just too different and the talent gap is far, far too wide.

Yes! At least one guy has finally seen the light.