Consensus QB Rankings: #1

[brady_branch]

I don't think we've done this exercise yet. Polls will be open for one week. I'll take suggestions on who to add to the ballot after each election.

[Galloping Ghost]

No Peyton Manning? Steve Young? It's tough to choose because the game has changed so much. Modern QBs can put up ridiculous passing stats that were simply not possible in previous eras. But, I'm going old school and picking Otto Graham. I've read that Graham also played professional basketball one season in 1946 with the Rochester Royals of the NBL (which became the NBA) and won a league championship as well. How cool is that?

[brady_branch]

He played on the baseball team at Northwestern as well, after getting in on a music scholarship.

Manning and Young will be on the next poll.

[philkid3]

I tried this and it failed spectacularly. Hopefully it will work this time.

[CCN]

I tried this and it failed spectacularly. Hopefully it will work this time.

We got up to 60. Not too horrible, although we did miss a few names and they dropped further than they should have.

[philkid3]

We got up to 60. Not too horrible, although we did miss a few names and they dropped further than they should have.

Oh I'm not talking about the collaborative rankings. That worked out decently I think.

But I wanted to do a one-by-one poll like this a while ago and it got, like, no votes. Hopefully Brady is more charismatic than me. Or whatever.

[brady_branch]

I just found that. My bad.

Hopefully it'll work this time, anyway. It helps when we get a lot of people checking in pretty much daily, like we have now for whatever reason. Of course, it won't work if we get five votes for four different QBs.

[CCN]

I'm winning!

I think we're all intelligent people, and the fact we've voted four different ways thus far just show how this is nowhere near a clear debate. All four choices voted on have excellent arguments.

I forgot about your attempt at this, Phil. Maybe just an unfortunate victim of timing. I really do wish more BBF members would come over. Some more than others.

[Galloping Ghost]

I have a strong baseball history/sabermetrics background. I tend to look at objective evidence. But in football stats are not as strongly correlated to "greatness" as it is in baseball. Sure great QBs tend to throw for a lot of yards and TDs. But modern QBs have a huge advantage with the liberal passing rules and 16 game schedules in putting up gaudy passing stats. Otto Graham's career high in TD is 25 (14 game schedule) in the old AAFC. His career high in the NFL is 20 TDs (12 game schedule). That's like 5-6 games worth of TDs for a Peyton Manning or Tom Brady today. When I look at Graham what impresses me is his decade long team dominance. He took his Browns to 10 straight championship games. Obviously, Graham had great teammates but he was the leader. But one can make an argument for just about everyone in the poll.

[philkid3]

Graham is also still No. 1 all-time in Yards per Attempt. That's somewhat skewed, because teams and QBs who realized how to pass back in the days before defenses figured out how to stop it absolutely destroyed and put up huge average yards (notice the top three are he, Luckman and Van Brocklin), but it doesn't skew it a whole lot (three recent QBs in the top 10), and it's an impressive total regardless. I'm not about to hold how great a passer Graham was against him for merely doing something teams weren't ready to stop in his day. Graham has a legit case for No. 1 and is the most underrated of those who have such a case. I'll be voting for him if he's still around once Elway gets selected.

[Brooklyn]

Graham is also still No. 1 all-time in Yards per Attempt. That's somewhat skewed, because teams and QBs who realized how to pass back in the days before defenses figured out how to stop it absolutely destroyed and put up huge average yards (notice the top three are he, Luckman and Van Brocklin), but it doesn't skew it a whole lot (three recent QBs in the top 10), and it's an impressive total regardless. I'm not about to hold how great a passer Graham was against him for merely doing something teams weren't ready to stop in his day. Graham has a legit case for No. 1 and is the most underrated of those who have such a case. I'll be voting for him if he's still around once Elway gets selected.

I agree that Graham is under-rated. But I'm not sure I see Elway as #1. Top-5 is reasonable, but I can't see him ahead of Unitas, Montana and Graham, and guys like Tarkenton, Brady, Manning, Steve Young and Staubach can be argued to be in the same pack as Elway.

Rating a QB is tough and very subjective. You really can't look at stats across era because the game has changed a lot over time. The best you can really do is look at how they compared to their era; the rest is subjective. You also have to figure in playing atmosphere. Dome QB's will look much better than cold whether QB's, for example. Again, this is why it is so tough and ultimately subjective. I also think superbowl wins is very important for a QB, taking into account those that played for poor teams wouldn't have an opportunity.

I've taken the ten guys on the poll and added Manning,Young and Bradshaw. While QB rating has its issues, I've used it below to be an indication of where the QB fairs in relation to league. I've listed each QB with # pro-bowls, # all pro, #times led league in QB rating / # times top ten in QB rating, # of super bowls and /or NFL championships


Unitas 10, 9, 3/12, 3
Montana 8, 7, 2/12, 4
Graham 5, 10, 4/9, 2
Elway 9, 5, 0/5, 2
Favre 9, 7, 0/10, 1
Marino 9, 8, 1/12, 0
Starr 4, 4, 2/9, 6
Staubach 4, 4, 2/9, 6
Tarkenton 9, 6, 1/16, 0
Brady 4, 2, 1/7, 3
Manning 8, 6, 3/9, 1
Young 7, 7, 9/8, 2
Bradshaw 3, 3, 0-6, 4


What really jumps out against Elway is only being in the top-10 in QB rating 5 times. Granted he played in Denver, which makes this somewhat unfair. He also only had 5 all-pros, which is generally the best 3-4 QB's in the league. While I understand there is bias in the voting for this recognition, these numbers where just too low for me to view Elway as the best QB of all-time.

That honor I've given to Unitas, for many of the reason listed above. right behind him I'd have Montana and Graham, but I haven't decided in which order yet.

[CCN]

I could see Elway, with everything he brought to that team, as a viable candidate. I might even vote him number 2 if Johnny U gets surpassed here.

I'm glad Graham is receiving his due in the discussion. I think Sammy Baugh should be considered for addition as much as Young, Bradshaw and Manning.

[philkid3]

I rank Elway No. 1 because his team was successful because of him. His defense was good, but inconsistent, and they had nothing on offense but this incredible, strong armed athlete who basically willed them to three conference titles in four years. I'm confident that had he had a good support cast and been on a team that threw as much and as deep as Marino he could have put up similar numbers. And even still, he retired, what, first in touchdowns and second in yards?

He was a phenominal athlete, a top competitor and a leader who could take the reigns of a team in important situations. I also give him credit for playing so well late in to his career. A lot of people like to say John Elway wouldn't have won a Super Bowl without Terrell Davis, but I don't think Terrell Davis would have won a Super Bowl without John Elway, either.

I think the top six quarterbacks can be argued in just about any order, but I think it's more than reasonable to argue Elway as the best.

[gridiron]

Unitas because he was a field gneral as well as everything else. He also redefined the position.

And yes, Baugh should be on the list.

[brady_branch]

Two days left in the balloting.

Any other names to add for the next poll besides Young, Manning, and Baugh?

[Galloping Ghost]

Unitas because he was a field gneral as well as everything else. He also redefined the position.

And yes, Baugh should be on the list.

How did Unitas "redefine" the QB position? :confused: